For Us, The Living

aggirlj: I find it awfully hard to follow along with these chats if people are continually interupting a thought. Is there a way to kind of stay with one person and comment on that?

OscagneTX: With a moderator, I suppose.

OscagneTX: I don't really like the idea, myself.

aggirlj: Can we get a consensus at the beginning and try to at least hold comment a little bit until everyone is on the same page?

OscagneTX: The early chats were organized with some kind of moderation, I think, but that was when big-time authors were guesting.

aggirlj: Oh.

OscagneTX: I don't get what you mean... you mean sorta shut everyone up and then start the topic formally?

Kultsi KN: It was very much politeness towards the guests

aggirlj: Not really intending to shut anyone up.

OscagneTX: that's just verbal shorthand for "get everyone's attention and ask them to withhold comment until a formal topic is proposed."

Kultsi KN: I think Jane means to have one person get all finished before starting yakking about what was said.

OscagneTX: K: We'd have to have formal moderation for that, I think.

aggirlj: Of course being on the hot seat would be a bit intimidating, for me at least.

OscagneTX: I've never been a formal moderator. Have you, K?

OscagneTX: I've never even been in a formally moderated chat.

aggirlj: I like the free flow of some of this but I really was lost Thursday.

Kultsi KN: Well, David did do a fairly good bit of, informal perhaps, moderation.

OscagneTX: The way the used to do it was, anyone who had a question would type "question" and then wait to actually post the question until David called on them.

OscagneTX: Going from the logs, that is.

aggirlj: I remember that.

Kultsi KN: I have never been on a chat _that_ formal

aggirlj: It worked somewhat. But you have some very strong and forceful people who need to be heard sometimes.

OscagneTX: But... we don't really have a guest. We'll probably have to revert to that if I can ever get us a guest again. I've got inquiries in to NASA, and Homer Hickham says he'll join us in about May.

Kultsi KN: But prompting people really does the same thing

aggirlj: Just a thought.

OscagneTX: I _don't_ want to leave anyone behind, and we can definetly bring it up for discussion once everyone gets here. Or post it for input on afh.

aggirlj: Kewl.

aggirlj: Back to the laundry. See you in about 45

OscagneTX: Ok.

OscagneTX: afk

Kultsi KN: Me too -- not laundry until tomorrow, but other things. Cya in an hour.

OscagneTX: b

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

aggirlj: Hi Steph,

Merfilly27: howdy

OscagneTX: howdy

aggirlj: Joe, are you there. Ron needs help getting in the room.

OscagneTX: dehede, right?

aggirlj: Right

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

Dehede011 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy.

aggirlj: Xlent

Dehede011: Thank you for the invite.

Merfilly27: np

OscagneTX: No problem.

aggirlj: I haven't yet figured it out.

Kultsi KN: Hello Steph, Ron!

OscagneTX: Are you using a Mac, Jane?

Merfilly27: gee seems we just met, Kultsi

aggirlj: Yes

Dehede011: Well, Janie, you have everything else figured out so all goes well.

aggirlj: :-)

Kultsi KN: Indeed, Steph -- just making this formal :-P

OscagneTX: Okay, so I'd be clueless to help.

Dehede011: We will overlook one little shortcoming.

Merfilly27: as if we have ever stood on formality, mon ami

Dehede011: Hi, Merphilly

aggirlj: There is always the "kindness of strangers" to help out.

Merfilly27: hello

Dehede011: What is going on that is new and exciting??

Merfilly27: Spirit snarked a Boojum

Merfilly27: :-)

aggirlj: Did you read tht tiny url on what's wrong with the lander?

Dehede011: No, what is it.

aggirlj: Very funny.

OscagneTX: That was a joke, Jane.

OscagneTX: Oh, ok.

Kultsi KN: There is this new exciting book in circulation.

OscagneTX: Some folks were having trouble getting it.

aggirlj: Are you kidding?????

Dehede011: FUTL?

OscagneTX: Thanks for noticing, Kultsi...

OscagneTX: "Dystopic Utopias"

Kultsi KN: That's the one, Ron.

OscagneTX: By me.

OscagneTX: %^)

aggirlj: Yea!

Dehede011: I understand EU is out in a hardback edition

Dehede011: I have always thought that TEFL was a major dividing line in RAHs career. Now I am trying to figure out if FUTL changes my opinion on that.

aggirlj: Have you read FUTL completely or as I am not finished yet?

Dehede011: I've finished FUTL

aggirlj: What did you think?

Merfilly27: with TEFL, he went back to FUTL's idealism?

aggirlj: For a first attempt.

Dehede011: It isn't bad, it makes us revise some of our thinking in that some of his ideas formed earlier than I first believed

OscagneTX: How are you connecting TEFL and FUTL?

Dehede011: Me or Murph?

OscagneTX: either

Merfilly27: He tackled customs in FUTL...but customs are mere extensions of taboos, which TEFL dealt with breaking

Dehede011: I am not connecting it yet, at least not in a major way, but it has me looking for a connection

OscagneTX: I'd say FUTL is more about having different taboos than about breaking any.

OscagneTX: I just got the impression of a very repressed societyl.

aggirlj: Certainly restricted in some sense.

aggirlj: By custom.

Merfilly27: yes, but I am not decisively connecting the two...just noting that TEFL is the ex perienced retake of culture with his hopes of FUTL there

Dehede011: FUTL has me thinking about the connection between Heinlein's ideas on sexual practices and the practices outlined in the Officers etiquette manual for the US Navy

OscagneTX: ?

Dehede011: I used to have a copy of the Officer's Manual and this has me wondering if I still do.

Dehede011: Pretend for a moment that Jane and I are married and I am a Naval Officer as Heinlein was?

OscagneTX: Ok.

Dehede011: So you gentlemen on here today and are brother officers.

OscagneTX: ok

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

Merfilly27: I don't wanna be a gentleman

Merfilly27: :-)

Dehede011: I am at sea and word comes to me that one of my brother officers has been seen dining out with Jane.

aggirlj: LOL

OscagneTX: Okaaaaaay.

Dehede011: According to the Navy Manual what should my reaction be?

OscagneTX: Put it off until you get back? Repress it?

aggirlj: He's a brother officer and honorable.

Dehede011: Anyone want to take a try at that?

aggirlj: Until proven otherwise.

Dehede011: Yes, he is a brother officer and assumed to be honorable.

Merfilly27: afk

Dehede011: I am to be grateful that a brother officer saw fit to get Jane out of the house for a couple of hours.

OscagneTX: hehe

Dehede011: I am not to consider that he might not be honorable until I have evidence to the contrary.

aggirlj: Would there not be a list of acceptable escorts and might he not be on that list.

Dehede011: Jane and I may have a list of guys that are off limits -- yes, but that is private

Dehede011: Now, my question is this?

Dehede011: Given the background that I have just given you just how strange is Heinlein's mores

starfall2 has entered the room.

aggirlj: Hi Jackie.

OscagneTX: howdy

starfall2: hi

starfall2: i guess this is going to kill any chance of me unpacking from winter break before my roomies get back =P

OscagneTX: %^)

Dehede011: Now let me have Merfilly for a wife and let Jane be married to one of you other gentlemen.

OscagneTX: Ok.

OscagneTX: (jackie... just hypothetical)

Dehede011: The way things were often actually done would be for Merfilly and I to take Jane out while her hubby was at sea.

starfall2: i figured that out

aggirlj: Exactly correct.

OscagneTX: Right.

Dehede011: But that other example was in the manual.

Merfilly27: b

OscagneTX: That was _in_ the manual? I'd have thought that'd be one of those "unspoken" things.

aggirlj: From what I understand thinking back to then, no woman would be out with any other man if married than her husband.

Dehede011: Still I am asking given his background was Heinlein so strange??

Merfilly27: No, there are explicit examples of conduct in the manual...remember from my JROTC

Dehede011: I bought my copy in 1955 roughly -- could have been 56

aggirlj: In the military there are differences, but the women seem to be the judges or critics in this regard.

Aurorax13 has entered the room.

jilyd has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy.

JudyjediJudy has entered the room.

starfall2: hi

JudyjediJudy: Hello.

Dehede011: Howdy

Aurorax13: hi

OscagneTX: howdy

Merfilly27: hey Stranger Dee

Merfilly27: :-)

aggirlj: Hi Dee.

Merfilly27: hello JJJ

jilyd: Fancy meeting you here, steph!

Merfilly27: ;-)

Merfilly27: you know, I had the same feeling with Kultsi

Dehede011: Is my brain misfiring, I thought Dee was on here when I came on?

Kultsi KN: Hi, gals!

Merfilly27: And I missed Aurora

Merfilly27: hi there

JudyjediJudy has left the room.

Aurorax13: HI

aggirlj: And what I mean by that is there is a hierarchy within the married women in the military and you are made to conduct yourself in certain ways.

Aurorax13: well I am here right now but I need to cook and make arrangements for my children for the evening

OscagneTX: Okay... so how are you relating the Naval ettiquite to FUTL, Ron?

jilyd: Hi, Judy and Aurorax. I'm Dee. And no, Ron, you were here ahead of me.

Dehede011: I haven't experienced that but as one woman's conduct would reflect on the others I imagine you are right

Dehede011: I just think I detect a familiar ring to the non jealousy pattern

aggirlj: During the 50's.

Dehede011: Hi Dee.

aggirlj: Jealousy is a wasted emotion.

starfall2: brb

moultonfcx has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Maybe... seems like to me a manual from the '30s would be more trying to control the behavior, and the folks in FUTL were trying to control the emtions, themselves.

OscagneTX: howdy.

Merfilly27: who here has not felt at least a pinch of the green monster in their past?

Dehede011: Oh Jane, I have taken leave of my senses. In the Navy I believe there is a little hierarchy among the wives with the CO's wife being the ranking wife.

aggirlj: Hand up.

BPRAL22169: Me too

Dehede011: Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Yo

Merfilly27: Then you are a fine woman, for as tolerant as I am, I did get miffed at being ignored by my love in favor of others at time

aggirlj: Hey, when did you sneak in, Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Oh, I've been here for a bit. I came in almost on the dot.

aggirlj: Wellll, maybe a long time ago.

aggirlj: I did get that green thingy.

Merfilly27: hiya Bill...I missed you too

BPRAL22169: I'm not sure "being miffed at being ignored" quite qualifies as jealousy -- it's one of the things you could do about being jealous.

Dehede011: brb, I am going to make a quick scan for my manual.

Merfilly27: it was jealousy, for I would find myself less civil with my rivals

BPRAL22169: But, generally, one can have appropraite feelings about being treated one way or another

jilyd: When I think of jealousy, I think of the kind that is full of suspicion. I have never had that kind.

aggirlj: Get away from that fast. Eats one up.

jilyd: But I have sometimes fallen prey to feeling left out.

Merfilly27: I find the people of FUTL too flat...lacking most of the deeper passions

Merfilly27: I have not been bitten by that one either, Dee

BPRAL22169: Yeahbut -- "feeling left out" isn't jealousy -- it's feeling left out

Merfilly27: just the little green monster

aggirlj: I agree Steph. I think it's because he chose to limit his exposition for some reason.

OscagneTX: My jealousy has always had root in insecurity. When I root out the insecurity, the jealousy follows.

jilyd: THe way not to have jealousy is to remember that you believe in your partner's honor.

BPRAL22169: There's a danger to that approach, Dee --

BPRAL22169: when your partner's conception of honor differs from yours.

BPRAL22169: The better way is to say to yourself: "it's not about me."

Merfilly27: I've never been jealous on a "physical" level...only on one of room in the heart, so to speak

jilyd: Well, to believe in it, you sort of have to both be onthe same page.

BPRAL22169: I'd say, again, that's not jealousy, Steph. Maybe an analogy of jealousy, though.

Merfilly27: (by the way, I may be distracted, the girls are changing their brother's diaper)

BPRAL22169: Not having one's proper social place acknowledged is a factual, social trauma (in the loose sense).

BPRAL22169: It's one of those things Aristotle talks about under the combined heading of "honor" in the Nichomachean Ethics -- public virtues.

BPRAL22169: Recognizing and feeling bad about a social insult is not pathological.

Dehede011: Nope, it seems to be gone, but I still have my Watch Officer's Guide

jilyd: Oops, gotta run. See you guys another time.

jilyd has left the room.

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

Dehede011: Bye Dee.

aggirlj: Dee left so fast Steph was booted but you got back quick!

Kultsi KN: LOL

aggirlj: I wonder why there was so little expositon in FUTL?

Dehede011: I was a Naval Aviation Cadet but that was for training and there was a degree of professionalism.

BPRAL22169: Exposition of what, Jane?

Dehede011: Economics??? LOL

aggirlj: More about main characters, especially where I am right now and Diana.

OscagneTX: I've always liked a start en medias res.

moultonfcx: Don't forget Olga as a main character.

BPRAL22169: I thought he did almost all of his character development in the scenes; I came out with a clear sense of their personalities.

Dehede011: Olga could have done with some more description.

Merfilly27: yeah...both women were just barely there, no substance

Merfilly27: or, maybe that is them...that is all FUTLers

aggirlj: Interesting.

Merfilly27: loss of emotive display creates two dee living

BPRAL22169: That's an interesting point.

BPRAL22169: I think it may relate more to the technical difficulty of writing a utopia

BPRAL22169: They wouldn't have all the quirks of character that reflect our wounding by society and upbringing -- so we don't get the cues.

aggirlj: Diana is definately somewhat of an innocent.

BPRAL22169: Or don't know how to recognize the cues they are sending -- can't properly participate in the society (which is where Perry certainly is).

Dehede011: If I am right about the Naval influence on RAH is that why his society is a little stiff five years after he left the Navy??

moultonfcx: Also consider the that the 30s were a little stiff

aggirlj: I am reading it with no preconceived ideas. Luck me I think since my comparisons are small.

OscagneTX: Okay... my mind is blank... Diana was the lady who found Perry, and Olga was the therapist?

Merfilly27: yes

OscagneTX: Ok...

BPRAL22169: I think some of the stiffness must be due to his literary models and the conventions of the genre he was aiming at. My first reaction on reading it was that it read an awful lot like John Taine's stuff.

OscagneTX: What do you think about Diana as a "enabler"?

aggirlj: She certainly was supportive.

OscagneTX: She knew Perry was having problems... probably had a good idea what they were... but didn't have the confrontational nature needed to prod him onto the "right" path.

BPRAL22169: Did she have a good idea of what his problems were, though?

aggirlj: He was completely out of the loop.

OscagneTX: I thought so when I was reading.

BPRAL22169: They were completely outside her experience -- and she is portrayed as sophisticated about the commercial side of her art, but not necessarily about anything else.

moultonfcx: It is hard to tell but the implication is that professional help was needed

OscagneTX: When he starts talking about being "honorable" and being married and whatnot, she doesn't set him straight.

moultonfcx: I think she tries.

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: that's because he was uttering gibberish -- the words didn't string togethe properly in Convenant society to have any meaning.

aggirlj: I think she wanted him to be better prepared firs.

OscagneTX: Howdy, Howard.

aggirlj: first

OscagneTX: I thought she was letting him steamroller her.

OscagneTX: Lazarus would not have respected her, I don't think.

LanaiHoward: Hi all. The idea of being prepared firs sounds nice--piney, pleasantly green

aggirlj: lol

AGplusone has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy, David.

aggirlj: Hi David.

AGplusone: [wave to all]

BPRAL22169: [wave back]

LanaiHoward: Osc, you talking about Dian? Could it have been a reverse of Lazarus with a couple of unexpected slaves -- they don't know the customs?

OscagneTX: yup

OscagneTX: Let me recap my idea for the new joiners:

LanaiHoward: Lazarus never struck me as unreasonable for someone learning.

OscagneTX: Diana was an enabler. She knew Perry had problems, but let his personality roll over her, to both their detriments.

LanaiHoward: (steamrollering, however, may be involved with the tail now draped over the monitor. Does Rhonda wish to comment from up there>)

OscagneTX: Lazarus would challenge your self-confidence, and grant (grudging, I think) respect if you stood up to him.

AGplusone: How was it to Perry's detriment? Or Diane's?

LanaiHoward: But would old Doctor Lafe? Would that Lazarus avatar have given some leeway for disorientation im a patient -- until they recovered a bit?

OscagneTX: I think a lot of the drama would have been avoided if she'd been more insistent. Bad for the book, but good for her personal life, and for Perry, probably.

OscagneTX: She let him get out of control enough that he committed a battery and had to get realigned (or whatever).

LanaiHoward: Or not Lazarus per se, but with Ben Caxton from the drunk tank? Jubal clearly cut slack for Jill.

OscagneTX: With Jill, we're talking about naivety, not ... vocabulary failing... "lack-of-gumption".

LanaiHoward: Osc, Diana is a dancer, not a forensic psychologist. She's not particularly experienced in ancient culture. Should she have expected the assault?

AGplusone: He'd have ultimately committed a battery somewhere else, to someone else, if he ever got romantically involved, wouldn't he?

OscagneTX: ?

Bookman99R has entered the room.

Merfilly27: I need to go...exceptionally distracted today

Merfilly27: have fun all

OscagneTX: 'night, Merf.

Merfilly27 has left the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy, Rusty.

Bookman99R: thanks, David

aggirlj: Hi Rusty.

Bookman99R: howdy, Y'all

Kultsi KN: Hi to all the newcomers

Bookman99R: wha'd I miss?

aggirlj: That's a good question David, anybody else who's gotten that far.

BPRAL22169: "Enabler" is a specialized term in a codependent relationship. I think you would have a hard time showing the Diana was filling a formal role like that. I think the interpretation that she was inadequate in coping with

AGplusone: And, without Diane, he'd have done it cold turkey, without her support and friendship. Maybe had to head off into Coventry, where they'd have shot him -- too much trouble.

BPRAL22169: a personality outside her experience works better.

LanaiHoward: "Enabler" can go too far, reminding of some 12-step zealots -- the kind that tell teetotalers that they are in denial of their alcoholism and are trying to escape it

aggirlj: I frankly don't see her as an enabler. I see her as a person who knows she's with someone who might be unstable.

Bookman99R: to some 12-steppers, _everyone_ is an addict

OscagneTX: If y'all say so. I still think she was wishy-washy. *shrug*

BPRAL22169: Yeah -- there's something comparable in the AA thing, I think. Alcoholic was one of the firstr "games" defined in TA, and anyone coming into contact with an alcoholic can assume the five defined player roles in the game.

LanaiHoward: Initially, I don't think she had much of a clue with what she was dealing with. She's in a society where maladjustment is rare.

BPRAL22169: But even people who aren't in the game at all might look from the outside and with only short exposure as if he were playing one of the roles.

BPRAL22169: Look, we bend our behaviors toward the people we associate with.

aggirlj: How do you deal with someone who died over a century ago and is here, in his body or not?

BPRAL22169: That's the way we "do" association.

Bookman99R: The "how he appeared on her doorstep" was too thin to do much with

moultonfcx: Depends on the person

OscagneTX: I also think Perry was closed minded. But about 99% of the population seems that way to me.

Bookman99R: at least at the point I am at

AGplusone: She had a choice. Could have done what the author suggests most women would have done. Left him figuratively in the social snowstorm. Moved on. How did it hurt her not to move on?

LanaiHoward: Jane, maybe not died -- but consider current experience with people from an isolated culture thrown into the contemporary one. Cultural shocl is real...

BPRAL22169: The way RAH worked that mutual attraction didn't seem very convincing to me.

AGplusone: The fall in love at first sight, Bill?

LanaiHoward: the taboo that is really a safety rule can kill quickly

BPRAL22169: Bellamy did it better in Looking Backward -- implausible from a 20th century realistic standpoint, but plausible in the romantic era it was written in.

AGplusone: Like Deety and Zack? Or Robert and Leslyn?

Kultsi KN: Like me and my ex...

BPRAL22169: I will buy love at first sight -- but it has to be portrayed as "at first sight" and not as a dawning realization days later.

BPRAL22169: Not enough cues to set up the trope, IMO

LanaiHoward: How many people in this culture are really prepared to start working cross-culturally on a moment's notice?

aggirlj: I'm with you Bill. I don't get the feeling it was love at first sight.

AGplusone: He did it better in Number of the Beast, but everyone thinks that's impossible too, yet -- it happens.

Bookman99R: Motherthing says "Hi!" - I got her slaving away while I loaf ;-)

BPRAL22169: I think we could chalk it up to inexperience on Heinlein's part.

aggirlj: I've witnessed it.

OscagneTX: "Howdy" to Motherthing.

BPRAL22169: I see what he's trying to do -- and it's not impossible it would take people awhile to figure out what is going on in their heads, but it miscues the reader to what's going on.

AGplusone: Which is more likely: Immediate "I love you, let's get married/jump in bed" or realization, followed by a time, before declaration?

aggirlj: Well there's lust and then there's love.

BPRAL22169: Which is more likely"? I'm not sure that question has any meaning -- both happen and are both thus 100% likely, except in a statistical sense.

OscagneTX: Or perhaps she's such a well-adjusted and free-thinking person, that as long as someone is not actively unpleasant she's okay with going to bed with them.

Bookman99R: I'm on a 12-year-long one night stand, myself

AGplusone: or eros and agape you'll like Time Enough For Love when you get to it.

OscagneTX: No marriage, right?

OscagneTX: And then he mistook the going to bed for love and marriage,

BPRAL22169: No, I remember talking with a 60+ year old who fell in love on first meeting.

moultonfcx: Consider that Perry was unconscious when Diana first saw him and he was not in top form when he first saw here. So given the progression of the story I find it all just barely plausible.

OscagneTX: and she didn't have the heart to set him straight.

LanaiHoward: In the sixties &seventies, I certainly remember people jumping in bed first, to see if they were compatible before getting into serious conversation

AGplusone: Waiting a while for the declaration is less dramatic, harder to protray ... less interesting as a plot device.

OscagneTX: *shrug*

BPRAL22169: She said it was because he "smelled like almonds."

BPRAL22169: Further deponent sayeth not.

AGplusone: So I'll agree it's less interesting plotwise.

Bookman99R: It didn't work much better that way, either - did it Howard? (although more fun up front, I concede)

AGplusone: Hey, she "saved his life." there's naturally going to be some dependance, some affinity.

aggirlj: I can tell you that I've been wondering if they ever get to that point. So you;ve answered it.

AGplusone: Hi, Fred, btw!

moultonfcx: Hi

Bookman99R: 'Lo, Fred

LanaiHoward: Rusty, to this day, I'm not sure -- I don't think it generalizes, other that (admittedly a small sample) that seemed the standard rule for every graduate of Smith I ever met.;-)

Bookman99R: Not criticizing, Howard - I did it bed first, meself

OscagneTX: *sigh* I get the idea that I missed a lot when I missed the '60s.

AGplusone: Take an example: you meet your best friend's girl, and realize you're in love. How often do you (1) declare immediate love, or (2) wait until he screws it up so you can step in ...

AGplusone: What's more likely?

LanaiHoward: one of the more insightful things came on a second evening, when we both thought I had the "hots", then discovered I wasn't too functional -- and turned out to have a 103-degree fever. That my friend switched to taking care...

aggirlj: More likely and prudent would be waiting.

LanaiHoward: was significant. Mind you, I also dated an increasingly psychotic woman once -- and on one weekend got a high fever from a sinus infection. We hallucinated together.

AGplusone: Tha's okay, Joe. I missed the 60s too. Mired in the 50s, watching the children play.

LanaiHoward: Osc, if it makes you feel better, these are mostly tales from the early to mid seventies

aggirlj: I missed the 60's but then there was the 70's.

OscagneTX: pfft... at least I am excused in that I wasn't born yet... %^)

LanaiHoward: excuses, excuses. Always excuses. You learned about casual nudity in utero, right?

AGplusone: I still don't see any detriment to Diane. She's number one in her field. Continues working. In her spare time she's nice to a kitten she pulled out of the snow.

OscagneTX: Don't you have to remember something for it to be said that you learned it?

Bookman99R: are we using "love" by RAH's definition, or by Hollyweird's, or another?

OscagneTX: good point, Rusty.

BPRAL22169: I'm sure he had read "What is Man" by that time, but I'm not sure he's using Twain's definition in FUTL.

BPRAL22169: This seemed to me like Hollywood hormones-love.

End of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Readers Discussion Group Saturday January 24, 2004 For Us, The Living

Heinlein Readers Discussion Group
Saturday January 24, 2004
For Us, The Living